Author Topic: Energy bandits & inefficient systems.  (Read 3275 times)

Bush

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Energy bandits & inefficient systems.
« on: October 07, 2012, 09:45:32 PM »
Michael of Bernicia's process of dealing with the Energy Bandits is documented in the two links below:

http://freetheplanet.net/media/245/success-with-the-energy-bandits
http://freetheplanet.net/articles/143/EBICLCW

I was trying to locate the reference that claiming that 70% of energy is lost in transit, I hope to have this shortly and will post as it is currently not available on the website referenced.  As I got searching around I found a source discussing how 70% of fossil fuel energy is lost in production ( http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2012/jul/06/energy-green-politics ).  This seems to be a different loss than that of distribution but can it be considered under the Utilities act 2000 as the failing of an obligation to maintain an efficient & economical distribution system.

http://thinkfree.org.uk/forum/index.php?topic=2092.msg3847#new

Are the power stations included in the definition of 'energy distributors' in the Utilities Act 2000 ?

Eitherway, we are perhaps presented with an argument that can be applied to the Secretary of State for continuing to use inefficient,  environmentally damaging systems/technologies for energy production (or should i say loss).  No doubt for the financial benefit of but a few.

Booosh
« Last Edit: October 08, 2012, 09:03:24 AM by Bush »
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Eoin O'Siluria

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Re: Energy bandits & inefficient systems.
« Reply #1 on: October 08, 2012, 12:28:29 PM »
What are we trying to argue here?

Michael stated In the summer of 2008, I challenged a completely bogus estimated bill from my energy bandits by demanding proof that I had used the amount of electricity they claimed I had been used at my STRAWMAN’s residence, on the basis that there was no legally binding, express agreement between the parties, and according to official statistics, up to 70% of gas and electricity is lost in transit between the supplier and the domicile.

Surely, as the 'usage meter' is placed at the domicile then we are charged according to what that meter reads. In other words it doesn't matter if 99% is lost before this stage providing we only pay for what arrives at our door?

If we were charged from what left the supplier that would be different.

OR// are we trying to prove that we are actually paying for those losses between the supplier/domicile, in inflated bills?

OR// Are we claiming that because they have losses of up to 'x'% in the supply line that this means they are not full-filling their obligations under some contract/act?

Bush

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Re: Energy bandits & inefficient systems.
« Reply #2 on: October 08, 2012, 01:17:17 PM »
Exactly my point, and it seems both of your options are what is being argued.

So inflated prices per unit cover the cost of a poorly maintained system, the unit cost would be 70% cheaper if the transmission system was efficient?

I have asked the CHPA to provide the news archive that Michael references as it is no longer available on their website.

Bush
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M O'B

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Re: Energy bandits & inefficient systems.
« Reply #3 on: October 08, 2012, 01:29:27 PM »
When I originally researched this subject I came across a forum, which has subsequently been taken down, where a very disgruntled former maintenance manager of an unnamed energy bandit had posted his very plausible tale of how his complaints to his managing director about the huge losses in transit between the national grid and every address supplied, were met with with the following smirking response:

"Don't worry about that; we cover the losses in service charges and maintenance costs."

The maintenance manager was aghast and replied without thinking:

"Is that not fraud?"

He left the company in disgust of his own volition, but he felt the reaction of the managing director made him feel like he would be sacked or made redundant in due course, so he took it out of their hands. The reason he claimed to be posting this on an internet forum was because he wanted people to know that they were being ripped off.

His explanation was very straightforward - the energy bandits charge for the energy that leaves the supplier, not for what is received. This is exactly the same as paying for 6 slices of pizza, but only receiving two, which is easy to achieve when the buyer has no knowledge of what he is paying for. In other words, each unit of energy received has a secret tariff added to it in order to cover the cost of the energy lost in transit.
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Bush

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Re: Energy bandits & inefficient systems.
« Reply #4 on: October 08, 2012, 01:36:59 PM »
Thanks for the clarification Michael :)
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Eoin O'Siluria

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Re: Energy bandits & inefficient systems.
« Reply #5 on: October 08, 2012, 01:42:30 PM »
Ok, now I know what the argument is I can see if I can pursue it further. FYI, my daughter works for Scottish & Southern Energy. Her best friend is also a Snr Manager there, with whom I have had this very same discussion, albeit over a few drinks & curry; but she admitted I was correct in my explanation. ie she knew this was happening. It's time to get her around for a curry again!

Michael, I seem to recall you saying, at a meeting at Zu-Studios almost a year ago, that under some Act the energy companies only duty was to reduce the losses within a certain time-frame & this they had not achieved. Am I right in that recall?

PatMcDonald

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Re: Energy bandits & inefficient systems.
« Reply #6 on: October 08, 2012, 02:12:10 PM »
My 0.02 cents worth... in order to comply with a given directive, an individual or corporate body only has to show "reasonable effort" to comply.

It's a great get out clause. They don't actually HAVE TO GIVE REMEDY outside of a court.

There is quite a huge gap between wholesale electricity price and what an "energy supplier" charges to the consumer, and it has to be said, consumer amount of electricity has risen while industrial use has fallen. Guess who pays the difference to keep the "energy supplier" (read: middleman) in pocket? That's right, the consumer.

I think best remedy I can help with is working out how to build local energy generators which eliminate the need for connection to the National Grid. In the US, 750,000 homes have managed to disconnect from the grid without much if any reduction in consumption.


Eoin O'Siluria

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Re: Energy bandits & inefficient systems.
« Reply #7 on: October 08, 2012, 03:49:02 PM »
That's certainly worth exploring Pat. Are you based in USA [only you mentioned cents & USA homes]?

We'd all certainly be interested in your contributions to building a home energy generator. I'm guessing this runs off some other energy fuel, like petrol, so whilst self contained, not totally 'off-grid'?

gerbil

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Re: Energy bandits & inefficient systems.
« Reply #8 on: October 08, 2012, 06:41:24 PM »
"His explanation was very straightforward - the energy bandits charge for the energy that leaves the supplier, not for what is received. This is exactly the same as paying for 6 slices of pizza, but only receiving two, which is easy to achieve when the buyer has no knowledge of what he is paying for. In other words, each unit of energy received has a secret tariff added to it in order to cover the cost of the energy lost in transit."

If you make a door invariably its made of wood. How much good wood do you need for that door? You buy a certain amount and the waste from that purchase must be paid for.

You ( the end customer) dont get all the wood paid for by the joiner.

You pay for the end result...the door

Efficiency is a different thing to the items explained.

Maxim of law...    The law compels no one to do anything which is useless or impossible.

Its impossible to get 100% efficiency from any normal system in place at this time.

Therefore if 6 slices of pizza are the units required to get the 2 delivered then what are the alternatives of striving to get all 6 to door?

given the time i could probably calculate it...electrically speaking.... but it would be wrong based on a number of guesses.

imho we should spend our time developing our systems to get the 6 to the door....or the system to set off any bill of exchange...probably both at the same time



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Bush

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Re: Energy bandits & inefficient systems.
« Reply #9 on: October 08, 2012, 07:25:05 PM »
Ultimately Kev you are right in that we need systems that get 6 to the door, or rather a system that is not a system but decentralised energy generation.  That said, the energy distributors are obliged under statute to maintain an efficient system (and obligation upon which rests their license) and if they are using 6 slices of pizza to send us two because they're more interested in getting themselves rich than providing a decent service then the point still has merit.

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spirit

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Re: Energy bandits & inefficient systems.
« Reply #10 on: October 09, 2012, 07:41:53 AM »
With reference to MofB's post regarding a forum that was taken down, it may be possible to view it again by posting the url into the "wayback machine" at archive.org.

gerbil

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Re: Energy bandits & inefficient systems.
« Reply #11 on: October 09, 2012, 07:52:00 AM »
As Ian has said above we need terms of references for any debate.

what is efficient

what is cost

the losses involved in getting a utility to the door are much misunderstood. by applying any natural law if you live by that it can be seen by calculation that its not possible by a normal persons understanding to achieve said efficiency.

if you claim to be under a different set of rules how can you use their rules and natural law against them? this is what you need to do to win... imo this is a distraction.  its a case for a class action or just concentrate on BOE.

BOE and interpretation act are what everyone needs to be experts in. if we have an obligation then how do we pay it? for me its those 2
« Last Edit: October 09, 2012, 02:41:03 PM by gerbil »
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PatMcDonald

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Re: Energy bandits & inefficient systems.
« Reply #12 on: October 17, 2012, 12:58:24 PM »
That's certainly worth exploring Pat. Are you based in USA [only you mentioned cents & USA homes]?

No, I am resident in Nottingham UK.

We'd all certainly be interested in your contributions to building a home energy generator. I'm guessing this runs off some other energy fuel, like petrol, so whilst self contained, not totally 'off-grid'?
No Ian. I am not interested in perpetuating the dependance on petroleum based energy. Rather, I'm looking at energy creation systems that are based on sustainable resources. One of the more intriguing poissibilities is reusing scrap aluminium - it takes a huge amount of energy to extract aluminium (which doesn't occur pure, naturally). React it with sodium hydroxide (annual over production 9 million tonnes, it's a waste product) and you get 3H2, quite a bit of hydrogen, which you can run a (stainless steel) built generator from. No petrol needed. It's not going to solve all energy problems, but it does make use of existing "waste" materials, and the end waste product (hydrated sodium aluminate) is non-toxic to humans, at least.

Making hydroxy gas from water is another route that doesn't involve using the scrap aluminium or sodium hydroxide.

Then there's bio methods - using bacteria to break waste plastic down into butanol. Snag wit that is, it will produces CO2, and I reckon best way to combat CO2 production is really simple... increase bio masss. . Very large scale geo projects to turn desert intos into green and fertile land.

It's not going to be one solution, but being dependant on a an "energy supplier" to buy electricity and sell it to you strikes me as tremendously inefficient. Likewise, arguing abouts about "law" and "rights" isn't going to get better methods to the market. So, I'll leave it to those prepared to fight in the law courts (got me own battles there!) to do that, and I'll carry on researching into viable methods. That strikes me as my best course, at the present time.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2012, 01:01:54 PM by PatMcDonald »